Get Yer War On!

[caraig]

So I was having a gander at the satirical Get Your War On and following a few of the links around. In the course of it I found AlertNet which is a really interesting source of news about some places in this world that are seriously messed up. If you are squeamish about how seriously messed up man can be to fellow man, and have a delicate faith in the inherent goodness of humanity, don't go to that site.

Anyway, I spotted one article there that made me pause and I head it through. Okay, can someone a bit more in the know tell me WTF is THIS all about? I mean... mercenaries? 'Cause that's what they are. That dude in the picture is a 'bodyguard' but he's carrying a frickin' automatic rifle if not a machine gun. Okay, long tradition of mercenaries, if not necessarily good tradition. Even so, it's kind of weird to see.

Then something else leaped out at me: one of the companies that's providing this is Dyncorp. Dyncorp! I almost went to work for them when I got out of college! I thought they were a company providing crews to oil spill respose vessels, and now I find out they're mercenaries?!

Let's make it odder. To quote from the article:

“It is also worrying that some companies are calling for immunity (from prosecution) in Iraq. We don’t want immunity and we don’t need it. We always go about our business within the laws of the countries where we work.

Uh... no fekking kidding!

Have a look at AlertNet.org, and take a look at some of the things going on. It's really damn sobering and this is NOT your typical extreme-left-wing loonie ranting. This is Reuters. Though at this late hour it's making me despair, and wonder how I could be so foolish as to have faith in the human race.

Comments

[ruggels.livejournal.com]

I get the same news from other sources, because I rad a lot ofnews at work. I never really believed in the inherent goodness of man. I believed in the inherent good of Western Civilization. People are apes. They have to grow up in the right environments with equally indoctrinated parents to produce positive members. Other wise people fall into some form of tribalism, or another, be it actual tribes, or gangs.

As for Mercenaries. there are a number of companies that do that. Executive Solutions kept rebels from continuing the HUTU/Tutsie Massavre, by taking key locations from the rebels by force, and taking no casualties themselves, until the Rebels complained to the U.N. Whereupon the U.N. demanded thatthe government send them away. The U.N. Replaced them with thousands of "Blue Helmets", who did nothing, so the massacre started again.

What brings peace is trade. Unfortunately Africa can't buy computers and stereos, and are too caught up in tribalism to be stable enough to exploit their natural resources.

It basically comes down to "Life is not fair",and "Justice is an artificial concept".

Scott

Scott

Promote Western Civilization! Go forth and plunder!

[malohin.livejournal.com]

[Bad username or unknown identity: Scott Ruggels (ruggels)] I never really believed in the inherent goodness of man. I believed in the inherent good of Western Civilization.

Just to be sure we're using the same terms, "Western Civilization" is usually used to refer to cultures derived from European tribal roots. Is this what you mean?

Do you have any good examples of the "inherent goodness" of Western Civilization, or is this something you take on faith?

Mahatma Gandhi was once asked what he thought about Western civilization. "I think," he replied, "it would be a very good idea."

[Bad username or unknown identity: Scott Ruggels (ruggels)] They have to grow up in the right environments with equally indoctrinated parents to produce positive members.

What do you mean by "positive members" in this context? Your phrase "equally indoctrinated parents" seems to imply the production of "positive members" would be the ideological equivalent of cloning; each generation having an uncorrupted copy of the (presumably "correct") ideology of the prior generation. Is this how you see the transmission of Western Civilization occurring?

[Bad username or unknown identity: Scott Ruggels (ruggels)] Other wise(sic) people fall into some form of tribalism,(sic) or another, be it actual tribes,(sic) or gangs.

I don't have a lot of patience for "Arcadian nostalgia" (utopian garden paradise where serene pastoral folk drink, dance and lounge around in an endless summer, i.e. the past is always perfect) but the students of history, sociology, anthropology, etc. I've had occasion to palaver with have commented on the general perception in their fields that many of the cultures encountered by the representatives of Western Civilization were reported to be (in general) much happier before their cultures were destroyed by Western Civilization.

Given that, I'd have to say your perception that tribalism is somehow a "fall" from some higher state or associated with "gangs" is more indicative of the tribal roots of Western Civilization, and is not representative of human tribes in general. Do you think there is there something about the roots of Western Civilization that makes it susceptible to the degeneration and violence you describe?

[Continued in next note]

Re: Promote Western Civilization! Go forth and plunder!

[ruggels.livejournal.com]

Bob!!!! You got a Livejournal? Long time no see!!!

Western Civ. generally those cultures currently derived from the the European age of enlightenment, excepting totalitarians. Generally tollerant. usually based on recognition of law and property, somewhat respectful of human rights. Loose definition.

What do you mean by "positive members" in this context? Your phrase "equally indoctrinated parents" seems to imply the production of "positive members" would be the ideological equivalent of cloning; each generation having an uncorrupted copy of the (presumably "correct") ideology of the prior generation. Is this how you see the transmission of Western Civilization occurring?

That's a rather literal view, but "Indoctrinated" may be a bit strong, but acculturated, into the shared values of the culture. But with each generation knowledge and experience is added to it. It's not unchanging, but "positive" means beneficial to the culture in the main. However Bob, you and i do have differentviews on the amounts of conformity (to put it mildly) :-)

don't have a lot of patience for "Arcadian nostalgia" (utopian garden paradise where serene pastoral folk drink, dance and lounge around in an endless summer, i.e. the past is always perfect) but the students of history, sociology, anthropology, etc. I've had occasion to palaver with have commented on the general perception in their fields that many of the cultures encountered by the representatives of Western Civilization were reported to be (in general) much happier before their cultures were destroyed by Western Civilization.

Probably true.

Given that, I'd have to say your perception that tribalism is somehow a "fall" from some higher state or associated with "gangs" is more indicative of the tribal roots of Western Civilization, and is not representative of human tribes in general. Do you think there is there something about the roots of Western Civilization that makes it susceptible to the degeneration and violence you describe?

Well, yes, in that there is a rather heavy educational investment in it, what with it's complexities.

Scott

Promote Western Civilization! Go forth and plunder! (2)

[malohin.livejournal.com]

[Bad username or unknown identity: Scott Ruggels (ruggels)] What brings peace is trade. Unfortunately Africa can't buy computers and stereos, and are too caught up in tribalism to be stable enough to exploit their natural resources.

What brings peace is a lack of fear, the fulfillment of basic needs, and self respect.

Your suggestion that peace would come to Africa if they could afford computers and stereos is, at best, naïve and condescending.
Given your "thesis" that trade==peace, the United States should be one of the most "peaceful" places on the planet.
Considering the amount of poverty, crime, and general stress and unhappiness, I think you might want to reconsider your math.

I will also point out that "trade" and "exploitation" by white settlers certainly didn't bring peace to North America, during its "tribal" period...

The more the Dakota have to do with the white, the worse. The whites give him whiskey to get his furs and bimeby he don't want to trap so many furst but he want plenty more whiskey. The white traders take his girl, and all he get in swap is a disease. They take his land, and all he get is a leetle annuity so he don't do any work and starve slow. The Indian gets white man's gun an he is drunk and kill his own brother and they call him sinful. That's what he get from the white man -- fine kettle, fine gun, fine blanket, the big pox, the small pox and religion.
-- Voyager in Minnesota, From The Godseeker, Chapter 20, pp. 128.129

[Bad username or unknown identity: Scott Ruggels (ruggels)] It basically comes down to "Life is not fair",and "Justice is an artificial concept".

I agree completely with you on this. ...but... isn't the height of human endeavor to struggle against the general unfairness of it all? Don't we celebrate as heroes those people who refuse to accept injustice and actually do something about situations they find intolerable? If we accept your argument that justice is an artificial concept, and life isn't fair, shouldn't "heroes" actually be considered dangerous lunatics and not role-models?

Your statements also might imply mistreatment by and of others should simply be accepted as an expected outcome of life's unfairness. Wouldn't this make it acceptable (perhaps even laudable) to treat every encounter as an opportunity to simply take as much as possible from those weaker than yourself? This doesn't seem to jibe with your "[belief] in the inherent good of Western Civilization."

Have I missed your point on this, Scott?

Re: Promote Western Civilization! Go forth and plunder! (2)

[ruggels.livejournal.com]

What brings peace is a lack of fear, the fulfillment of basic needs, and self respect.

Okay, I have not heard that before, but you being you, I'll take your word for it.


Your suggestion that peace would come to Africa if they could afford computers and stereos is, at best, naïve and condescending.
Given your "thesis" that trade==peace, the United States should be one of the most "peaceful" places on the planet.

The definition of peace, for me, is generally the absence of war. Crime is a civil matter. Am I in err?

Considering the amount of poverty, crime, and general stress and unhappiness, I think you might want to reconsider your math.

I was never any good at math, anyway, but I was not speaking as that trade was a"solution" to Africa's problems, but more as how interest is generated in Africa, outside of nature shows.


I will also point out that "trade" and "exploitation" by white settlers certainly didn't bring peace to North America, during its "tribal" period...


Actually I think the policy ranged from neglect to outright genocide and land grabbing (see: Andrew Jackson), There were times when the Whites and the Indians weren't at each other's throats, in the north east, but generally it was "Manifest Destiny and all that it implied back then.

I agree completely with you on this. ...but... isn't the height of human endeavor to struggle against the general unfairness of it all? Don't we celebrate as heroes those people who refuse to accept injustice and actually do something about situations they find intolerable? If we accept your argument that justice is an artificial concept, and life isn't fair, shouldn't "heroes" actually be considered dangerous lunatics and not role-models?

Some do:
http://www.canada.com/national/story.html?id=9d58e7ae-a2bb-4445-b4d2-b4b34f7fde7f

But yes, those are the role models and heroes. Sometimes even mine.

Your statements also might imply mistreatment by and of others should simply be accepted as an expected outcome of life's unfairness. Wouldn't this make it acceptable (perhaps even laudable) to treat every encounter as an opportunity to simply take as much as possible from those weaker than yourself? This doesn't seem to jibe with your "[belief] in the inherent good of Western Civilization."

No it is not acceptable, nor laudable to act in such a way, but it is common, and should be kept in mind, so as not to become a victim, as it occurs at all levels. Sometimes it criminal, and the force of the law should be brought against it. Sometimes it's someone being an asshole, and that isn't criminal, just unfortunate.

Scott